STORYTELLING SHIFT: Email Marketing Decline, Taylor Swift Launch Lessons (Ep. 015)

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 Is email marketing finally losing its edge? Joanna and Michelle unpack why social-first creators are outperforming inbox campaigns—and what Taylor Swift’s newest album rollout teaches us about storytelling, polarization, and pre-launch mismatches.

What You’ll Learn:

• Why “storytelling content” now outperforms how-tos and tutorials—and how to shift your messaging to match.
• What Taylor Swift’s The Life of a Showgirl reveals about audience expectations, brand alignment, and staying polarizing on purpose.
• How to adapt your marketing when your email list stops converting—and why on-platform sales are the new frontier.
  
  

Timestamps:

 00:00 - Introduction
 03:15 – The blurred line between business and personal life for creators
 10:42 – Storytelling vs. teaching: the new era of content marketing
 14:25 – Learning YouTube ads in-house (and why most agencies miss the mark)
 22:10 – The fall of email marketing for creators and rise of on-platform sales
 42:00 – Taylor Swift’s The Life of a Showgirl: pre-launch mismatch and fan expectations
55:20 – The power of polarization and authenticity in personal branding

References & Resources:

• Ramit Sethi
• ManyChat
• The Life of a Showgirl — Taylor Swift

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📩 Michelle: hello@michellepualani.com
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Transcript

Joanna Newton: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Click Tease podcast where we give our marketing hot takes each and every week. This week we are talking all about some new trends we're seeing in marketing, like focusing on storytelling content, and using on platform features to sell directly on social media. the end, we'll also be doing a breakdown of the Taylor Swift album launch and some good and bad we're seeing through this process. Hi, my name is Joanna. I'm the co-founder of Millennial Marketer and Agency that helps creators build their own digital products

Michelle Pualani: And I am Michelle, founder of To be Honest Beverage Company, a non-alcoholic functional spirit line, as well as business and marketing consultant. Let's get into it. 

Joanna Newton: So today I've got a hot tea put a little honey in it. I'm having really bad seasonal allergies. I get them in the fall, and I'm hoping the honey keeps my voice from getting weird during this episode today. [00:01:00] But it's also like a rainy, kind of cold, cold day where I'm at, and it's kind of cozy to have the hot tea with with honey.

Michelle Pualani: That's lovely. I'm so glad it's kind of turning into fall. It's been very warm here, like high eighties warm, but today is overcast and our temperatures are dropping, so I'm hoping that sometime soon we have some actual rain in our area. San Luis que California stays awfully warm throughout the year, um, and kind of dry unfortunately.

But today I am just drinking some simple yerba mate. I already made my like full on drink in the morning. Latte latte, and so this is nice and simple, but warm and cozy like you said.

Joanna Newton: Yeah. That's one of the nice things about like working from home that so many people, so many people who work for themselves, work for them home. Now. Also, people who are, you know, self-employed, working remotely, even full-time jobs is you get to like, have so many fun little [00:02:00] treats and beverages throughout your day without having to go spend like, feels like $12 at a coffee shop.

Michelle Pualani: It is been challenging for me to work at home. I used to be really good at it. Like I could just sit down, focus, get it done. I don't know if it's 'cause we're in a new environment or where I am like in my head with my work stuff, but it's been really hard to try to focus at home. So I have to go to like dedicated places.

There's actually a spot, there's a coffee shop that I really love here in San Louis with Bo and the owner's opening up a, um, a coworking space. He's had a coworking space before and so we chat like all things business and talk a lot about it. Different things, but he has a really successful local brick and mortar that does food and coffee and actually cocktails as well.

And he's opening up a coworking space, so it'll be like three-ish blocks from me 'cause I'm kind of close to the downtown area here. So it'll be within walking distance and I'm like, that is going to be so great for me just to have a dedicated place to [00:03:00] go. I've tried to do like library, different coffee shops and things like that.

There's really, I go to his coffee shop to work because it feels like the only place that I can sometimes outside of my home environment. But I'm really excited to have like an A space that's dedicated. For work that I can go to 24 7 whenever I need to and just have that. I think it's important sometimes to delineate a lot of people in the home environment deal with that.

Right? Especially as content creators, like I'm in my living room, right? Because this is where I can be set up with my lights and camera and microphone and the whole shebang. Sometimes it's fa hard to find a space at home that you feel comfortable recording in. Maybe you're recording in your kitchen, your bedroom, your living room in these spaces.

And so the lines can blur a little bit when it comes to business and personal life. And so I used to be pretty good at being able to say like, this is my working space and this is my personal life. And now all of those lines are really blurred. And so I think that [00:04:00] I need to get back into the space of having dedicated energetics in an environment for working and then keep my personal life personal.

Yeah.

Joanna Newton: it can be really easy as a business owner to just like work 24 7. Um, it can also be easy as a business owner. It depends probably on your personality to get the things you need done because you're always prioritizing personal, right? And having those moments when you can prioritize personal, prioritize work, focus on one over the other, I think is really important.

And we always talk about, we've talked on this podcast about context switching. That's, it's kind of the same thing if you're, if you're constantly going between work, personal work, personal work, personal with no, um, like delineation between the two, you're not doing either of those things justice. Like you're not really fully enjoying your personal free time and then you're not truly focused and even enjoying.

'cause you, if you're, if you work for yourself, you probably actually love what you do. Um, you're not fully enjoying and invested in, [00:05:00] in that work. So having, having dedicated spaces or time or. Even just things that signal work to you if you don't have a big space, just being like, okay, when I have my notepad and my tea and my computer, I am working right.

Whatever that is for you. I think that's important for productivity.

Michelle Pualani: Very much so, and fun fact, as you're listening to the Click Tease podcast, hit subscribe, tune in every single week as we talk, branding, marketing updates. But we actually used to be the podcast that was titled Her First. And so it was all about prioritizing you in business and life. So a lot of these topics and conversations were some of our original discussions, bringing in topic experts and discussing ourselves what it takes to be a female entrepreneur as you're running and managing a business, to be able to optimize for performance in your business with all the systems and the marketing, et cetera, but also be able to prioritize that personal side.

And so I think it's still an important reminder, especially for me right now. As, like I said, the lines are really blurred. [00:06:00] There needs to be a more clear delineation. Like we work out of a commissary kitchen for our main brand and business, TBH. And I don't go there to do office work. It's, you know, it's distribution, it's packaging, it's manufacturing.

And so it's a small aspect of the business. And so either that's my home environment or a space that I set up for our work. We don't have a physical office. And when we don't have those things, it can be challenging to make that difference. So I think it's just a good reminder to think through what's your day like, what's your routine like?

How do you approach things? Because when you're looking at the success of follow through. If there are things that are, you're either procrastinating on things that you know you should do or get to, or even if you feel uncomfortable, right? Like a lot of people struggle getting in front of the camera because they don't like their background or they don't know how to set up the lighting, or they don't know how to do X, Y, Z.

And so if you can decide, okay, this is where I'm going to film, I'm gonna set it up, I'm gonna curate it. That's what Joanna and I did, especially when [00:07:00] we switched the format of this podcast. We used to be behind our desks and it was a little more straight on, and now we do it more. If you're not watching us.

We do more lounge chair style. So we each have, you know, cushion chair set up. Um, it's a bit more informal, but I have lighting in back of me. I have lighting in front of me, I've got a professional microphone. Joanna has the same. And so you just have to take the time to be able to curate that. And that can help with the confidence of your delivery and your follow through.

Because a lot of times I think what stops people is the, oh, I don't know what to do. Oh, wait, what? Like, how am I gonna move through this? Wait, where should I film? And they then it just adds to that procrastination and putting things off. So if you can curate and you can say, let me take some time to map out the space, map out the environment, then you can actually fulfill on the marketing task, on the branding, on the thing that you, you know, you're meant to be doing for your business. 

Joanna Newton: Yeah. I think a lot of the [00:08:00] things that keep people from doing what they want aren't the big tasks. It's like not actually the big task, it's the how do I do that? When do I do that? What should I do? What day? Like where do I do it? Right? So if you can solve some of those kinds of problems, actually showing up to film or actually going in writing your client proposals, what, whatever that task is for you, if you have structure around it, um, whatever that is.

I'm not someone who does really well with the same exact schedule every single day, but every task I do has a process, has a system. So I might say, you know what? This morning I'm gonna go get all of my proposals out. But then I have a system and way I do those proposals. For me, that's what works for other people.

Having set times might be. What works for, some people love filming outside their kitchen. They don't care about having the curated space or background right, and that's what works for [00:09:00] them. For other people, they wanna feel like they have a set home to come to. So it's about playing and working with what's gonna work for you and your personality and your work style and like how you like to show up. But the key I think, is in being intentional. If you are not intentional about it and you're not making choices, you're not gonna be successful. But if you think about it and you're intentional and you make choices, you'll be able to thrive.

Michelle Pualani: And that's a big part of the personal brand as a whole, right? When you're approaching how you're presenting your personal brand online, it works for wellness influencers and creators to film in a studio, gym, spa in their kitchen when they're doing juicing or smoothie making. You know, it works for people who are maybe in business and marketing to be behind a desk and have a curated background and the right lighting.

It also depends on the platform, right? YouTube is expected to be a lot higher quality. Typically. I won't say that you have to have high quality, 'cause they're definitely successful creators and [00:10:00] business owners who they don't care so much. It's more about the messaging and the content and the knowledge that they're providing.

But for a lot of folks on the YouTube platform, lighting and setup are very important. Sound is really important. Audio is important. If you're creating more short form content, those things are gonna change and shift, right? You want things that are a little bit more organic, a little more selfie like.

That kind of thing. One thing that's interesting, I think from a personal branding perspective, and as far as content goes that I wanted to. Like being able to talk about from a storytelling perspective, the relatable aspects of what it is that you do. And it's something that I've noticed more so because a lot of time, well, I'll have to say like, okay, several years ago we were very much in like the educational marketing space.

It was a lot of tips, a lot of tricks, a lot of how tos, a lot of tutorials and those still have their place in certain instances. But the majority of marketing [00:11:00] and and content creation that I see is storytelling related to the experience that your ideal client audience is going through. The more that you can be relatable, whether that's through your own story or it's telling a client's story or it's presenting some type of content that relates to the person so that they see themselves in the content is really powerful.

I think tutorial level content. Is still out there. And maybe specific to related and related to certain niches, but I think it's more, if anything, for like reach and shares as opposed to the more of the business side of propositioning your offer. And I, Justin Welsh I think is a really good example for this.

I still get his newsletter. I haven't been spending a lot of time in consuming content because I've been focused on content creation. But when it comes to what Justin Walsh does with his emails, which are also on his blog and everything else, obviously he recurs, it's like all a content flywheel in which you typically have like one king platform or one [00:12:00] main type of content creation that is your core, and then you take pieces of that and you turn it into other.

Things, whether that's like a bullet point thing or it's a LinkedIn post or it's a tweet, but it all kind of comes off this main, core piece of content, right? So in his emails, I've noticed a big shift in the content that he talks about and what he does. He still teaches, but it's more related to storytelling experiences from his nine to five lifestyle and why he made the switch that he did, and living the entrepreneurial life and what the desire of someone might be who used to be in his shoes, right?

So if someone's looking for the freedom, the time, the income of course, but more so the experience of, you know, waking up and not having to go to the office first thing, being able to take a walk when he wants to. I see that content permeating, whereas it used to be more around lines of like, these are the exact steps that I took, or this is what you need to do.

[00:13:00] It's not to say that that's not so relevant and he still has content related to that, but it's all storytelling content. Powerful.

Joanna Newton: Yeah. Super powerful For some of us maybe harder to do, Like, like people who are good at what they do can say like, oh, here are five things you can do to improve your sales page today. Or, here are five ways that you can have a better morning, like a more productive morning. Like that feels really, really easy.

But to actually dig into the emotion and think about the story and think about what is actually going to resonate with people from a storytelling perspective, not a teaching perspective. And then if you're in the world of like selling education and then sell that product. So I just, before we got on this podcast, I was sitting down with my. Business partner. 'cause we're working on some ads and we're, we're working on really [00:14:00] learning for ourselves how to do YouTube ads. Now, someday we might end up adding, adding that as like a service or a course or something like that. But we are learning the process for ourselves because truth be told, I've worked with tons of agencies and I've never been happy with an ads agency. I've like never worked with an ads agency that I thought, wow, they get results. I find ad agencies, when the ads aren't working, will come back to you and tell you it's your offer, it's your sales page. And it's never like the messaging on the sales page. It's like, oh, you should use, you should use green buttons. And you're like, what? That's what.

Michelle Pualani: Ugh. Yeah, it always bring, they always bring up ridiculous stuff or they're like, well, you just need to spend more. I'm like, if you can't demonstrate that our, our amount of spend with, if you can't give me any tangible data about experimentation, AB testing, the copy, the creative, and tell me based on a small amount of numbers and metrics, like I don't need to [00:15:00] spend 3000 more dollars with you in order to learn what has and hasn't worked.

You don't know what you're doing and you don't know how to understand the analytics. Oh, I could go off all day about ad agencies

Joanna Newton: Well, hopefully soon we will someday have an offering or a course to help people with this. And right now we're focusing on YouTube ads. And Brandon, my business partner, he's doing like the majority of the actual work on this and I'm just kind of like a fly on the wall and, and helping with like the messaging and the copy and the, the creative concepts. But from his work I have learned more and I've, 'cause I've worked in the corporate level with like agen ad agencies that we were paying lots of money. So it's, I've worked with like agencies on ads and I have learned more in this process and gotten like, we've figured out more than I've ever had by like talking to an agency.

Like I feel like I'm starting to understand it conceptually the strategy, like what to do. We've gotten a couple of sales with their ads so far 'cause we're still just kind of playing and [00:16:00] testing and spending very little money as we like, kind of try to figure out the formula. But we were working on ad scripts before getting, uh, before we got on this call. And like really challenging ourselves in those ad scripts to use the phrases our target audience is gonna be using instead of how we would say it. Right. Like really? And like, like just really looking at the words and saying like, wait. That's what you and I say, but like, what would they say? Like what, what would they say that would be that hook for them?

And just really taking the time to do that. Now we could be wrong, but we we're at least being very, this is a theme for today. We're being very intentional thinking about it, and then we can run that. And if that ad isn't getting clicks, we were like, okay, we tried those phrases. We, we very intentionally chose that language.

That's not working. Let's try something different. But if we weren't intentional, if we just said things and then it didn't get clicks, then we're like, well, we have no idea [00:17:00] why we have, we have no idea what was intentional to even change. Um, so telling those stories, being intentional, using language your people is using, rather than just being like, Hey, I'm the expert.

Do what I say, and like really connecting. 

Michelle Pualani: Such a good reminder for me where I'm at right now too. We're in the space of re-analyzing, so I do marketing and business consulting. I'm working on growing my personal brand and figuring out like the best curated offer for what I want that brand to look like as I grow. But in each case, we have the system down.

Like we're at a point where creating content is so freaking easy. Now everyone's at different phases, and I think a lot of people when they're just getting started, just the idea of creating content, there's so many questions. It takes them hours to prepare, hours to film, hours to post produce. It's like we have it down to the format that works for us in whether that's a voiceover, whether that's a trending, whether that's a.

[00:18:00] You know, different type of piece of content, talking head content. Like it's really easy for me to content create at this point because I've been practicing it and doing it right, quantity over quality in that regard. But now we're definitely at a point of refinement where it's like, okay, something about this isn't working, it's not getting the reach that we want it to, it's not getting the engagement that we want to.

It helps when we collaborate with other people, but there's an aspect of either the language with text on screen and what is actually speaking to people that we aren't quite capturing. And we've done market research before. We do, we feed, we do customer feedback surveys and inquiries. And I also do like market research when it comes to answer the public Reddit, Facebook groups, like on all kind of like the channels looking for that.

But I think what I always do is. Like you're saying is you take what someone said and then you try to reframe it [00:19:00] from your perspective, and it's just like, I just need to stop doing that. I, I need to stop synthesizing in my marketing, synthesizing is for delivery customer work, whether that's one-to-one, your group programs, your offer or your teaching, you're synthesizing information and bringing it together to be able to provide, right?

But marketing is genuinely taking what people think, say, believe, desire, want, and just mirroring it to them. And that's part of the sales process too, right? If you do any type of, especially high ticket sales call training, you are mirroring back to people what it is that they want and what they're looking for.

That's why when you get on those calls and it actually, I'm at a point where I, I cap my like. Calls with potential vendors. 'cause I talk to a lot of ad agencies, marketing freelancers, you know, people who have services for my TBH business, I did a lot with my personal business too, on a, in a different front, but like way more, I get [00:20:00] pitched so often on that front that I have it down to like the first, I don't even know, I, I can tell pretty early, but let's just say even the first seven minutes, if someone books like a 15 minute to 30 minute call with me in that seven minute mark, I can determine whether it's gonna be good or not or work for us.

But they always try to start with, well tell me about your business and what are your goals and what do you want and what are you working towards? And you know, what are you struggling with right now? All of those kind of general questions, even if they're phrased differently and then they're just gonna spit it back to me.

And that's the sales process. And I get that

Joanna Newton: how you, that's how you, that's how I.

Michelle Pualani: it's how you sell. Yeah, that's how you sell. And we get that and we understand that. And as a business owner you should understand that. Um, but it's funny because from a marketing perspective, we revert back to our authority. And especially if you're a personal brand and you're working with something that is your expertise and you're knowledge base and you're bringing that to the world, you always come [00:21:00] from that teaching point.

You're always talking above. I saw this great piece of content recently that someone was talking about, like, are you speaking to experts and other authorities, or are you speaking to your clients and prospective audience members? And your language should be so different in both settings. You and I talk to each other, like expert to expert, and we try to then reformulate.

To our audience as they listen in more of that kind of synthesizing slash like breaking down kind of way where we're explaining, I explain things that you already know and you explain things to me that I already know, but generally our conversation is expert to authority level and then we try to break it down.

But when it comes to the marketing, our goal is speaking more in relatable terms, relatable states of being relatable states of want or desire or struggle or pain that that audience member, that client is going through. And [00:22:00] that's the switch that I feel like if you really understand that you'll be able to excel, market and sell whatever you want.

Joanna Newton: It is such an interesting time in marketing right now because I do feel like so much is changing. you know, and we've talked, we have lots of episodes and you can, you can all look back and find some of our episodes where you talk about like ai, like AI has changed a lot with marketing and will continue to change a lot with marketing. But something I've been noticing really recently that's been a shift is in the effectiveness of email marketing now four years, I think for the past, I don't know, 10 years, everybody's been saying email marketing is dead. And I would be like, no, it's not because I. Always saw, and I, I run launches level, um, for individuals, like all kinds of folks, the data [00:23:00] always showed me that email marketing was not dead.

So there'd be all these gurus on the internet, email, marketing's dead, you shouldn't be doing that. You need to be doing something different. But then I'd run a launch and I'd be like, well, these emails brought in of thousands or hundreds of thousands or tons of money. Right? And then I knew every time I sent an email, there was a boost in sales.

And like I could see that connection in the data. I will say I've just recently seen some very interesting things that are starting to tell me that. I will not go so far to say email marketing is dead. But I will say, I think for creators, email marketing is becoming less effective. I just, I've run like three different launches this fall. I've run more, more than three launches this fall, but I've run three launches so far this fall all around the same time period where engagement from [00:24:00] social was higher than the email list. So we did get, we did get people to ev register for like an event for a free thing via email. We did keep, get people to buy via email, but the engagement of like free opt-in on social was higher than the email list, and the engagement of purchases was higher direct from social. And I have never seen this before and I saw it three times. Analyzing launches within just a couple of weeks. I realize that's still a fairly small sample size. Right? I will give the caveat of all of these creators, our social first creators, so they're people who have really grown on a social platform. But what this is telling me is that in launch strategies and in launches, I think we really need to get and find easy ways for people to [00:25:00] purchase on platform. And again, uh, like and on platform, I mean like the social platform that they're on. And I, I realize that people have been saying this for a while, but I haven't seen the data match up to that until this time period. And so if I was planning like a fresh launch right now, my focus would be more on social, more on using tools like ManyChat, which are like. DM automation tools to get sales and more on social retargeting, um, like social ads, retargeting. And, and what I mean by that is, you know, if you are getting your social audience engaged and they're going to landing pages, you can retarget via ads on that same platform.

You can do this in meta, you can do this in YouTube in different areas where really focusing where people are at because the emails are just [00:26:00] not doing what they used to. Like I used to feel like if someone had an email list, I could have a huge su successful launch. But I'm seeing that not to be true.

And then I'm seeing this willingness on social to get right into a free thing or even a paid thing, right? Like a low cost paid or a free thing direct from social. And I think it could just be like, my, my theory is as we start to like age down, like, like not age down isn't the right thing, but like are fewer and fewer people who, who are new to technology, right?

Like, like as, as like the people who started with technology get older. We don't just check email and think about your personal email for a second. You, Michelle, and if you're listening, like when was the last time you actually clicked on something in your [00:27:00] personal

Michelle Pualani: So I'm like, totally. Uh, I know that I am very different than a lot of,

Joanna Newton: email,

Michelle Pualani: a lot of,

Joanna Newton: the email you purposefully use for, for business things.

Michelle Pualani: so I have my TBH email, which is like our core email. Obviously I have like my own and then the main one, but. I have that email. I have my business consulting personal brand email, and I have my personal email. And I recently actually did this where I cleared a bunch of random ones 'cause I've had a bunch of random ones for different things.

But predominantly, those are my three core emails and I keep pretty much like a zero inbox for the most part.

Joanna Newton: Of course

Michelle Pualani: So I know I'm one, I, that's why I am, I'm the minority in this group and I realize that. I recognize my husband, my sisters, most of the people that I know have thousands of unread emails sitting, they haven't been through their email inbox.

They don't check it on a [00:28:00] consistent basis, maybe once a month or whatever. I, I understand. Like that's most of the people. So I, I realize I am not. The guy. But that being said, I don't usually, I don't subscribe to a lot of things and I consistently unsubscribe from things. So I used to pay a lot of attention to email marketing and you know, if you signed up for something, what was the flow and what emails were you getting and the countdown and anything else.

And so now I think I'm just at a point where I can recognize all of it based off of the subject line that there's not that much that intrigues me enough to open. And then I will say I pretty much limit my content consumption. So I have Justin Welsh, I still get his emails 'cause he sends one email every single week and I'll usually peruse through them.

I don't read in like high detail. And then I do James Wedmore. James Wedmore is like one of my very initial business marketing mentors and coaches in the space. I originally signed up with Ramit Setti in some of his initial [00:29:00] programs. And so he was like my. First intro and foray into the digital space.

But James Wedmore's really been there since the beginning and I did B, b, D and I'm done next level. And I have a lot of his content and I love what the approach that he takes 'cause he takes more of like a spiritual mindset approach to mixing with very tactical business strategy. And he's so transparent in everything that he does and everything that he offers.

So I still read his CEO weekly emails, um, but for the most part, I don't get a lot of other things. And I recognize that. I think it's a generational thing, like you mentioned. It's very true and what you're trying to say. So as you're listening to this, you are thinking about like your launch systems and models.

And the question that comes up here is, where do we invest our time and energy? It's always gonna be limited and we always wanna focus on leverage. And so there's a lot of obviously different teachings and guru approaches to this process. And we're not saying you should pick any one over the other. [00:30:00] When it comes to content channels and where you're placing your energy, that should align with your personal brand, your voice, and the way that you like to deliver content.

If you don't wanna be on video, LinkedIn is gonna be more of your platform. If you don't like writing and you love being on camera, you know, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram are gonna be more of your alley if you love long form content, but not short form. YouTube, if you really love like highly relatable talking HeadStyle stuff, TikTok, if you love more like funny, engaging, entertaining slash maybe even more aesthetic Instagram.

So each platform has a different presence, and I think it's important that we acknowledge that and identify for our brands how we want our voice to show up. But then when it comes to then capturing that attention of what you're doing with that traffic. That's where this question of like systems and channels and what's working does come into play and data and analytics are really important for this.

And not every brand is gonna be the same. There are certain highly engaged [00:31:00] marketers, like someone like I mentioned, Justin Weh or maybe Welsh, or maybe Sahil Bloom, even Tim Ferris. Like there are a lot of brands in the space that have a very highly engaged email audience, and so they can talk to their channels on that front and be successful.

If you are social first and you have a super engaged social media following, it might be that what Joanna is talking about, social media marketing, uh, retargeting with ads and using a system like ManyChat that stays predominantly on platform in the DM back to back is going to be more advantageous. So.

It is interesting to see the trend. It is gonna be different for each brand, but it's important to figure out what works for you. And that's, I think the thing to extract from this lesson is if you find that your email marketing is losing traction, you don't, has have as high of an open rate. You're not getting the click-throughs you wanna see [00:32:00] and you're not seeing the sales exploring other channels like what Joanna is talking about through your launch systems and how you sell could be a good thing to pivot when it comes to systems and strategy.

Joanna Newton: Yeah, and I think this is where the, the guru, the marketing gurus can like lead you astray

Michelle Pualani: Mm-hmm.

Joanna Newton: because you might be someone who is, you have a great Instagram following, you're growing your Instagram, you get engagement there and all of that. And then you come across, maybe you come across Justin Welsh and he's, his primary platform is LinkedIn. So then you're like, oh, well I need to have a LinkedIn and I need to do LinkedIn ads and I'm gonna follow his LinkedIn blueprint. Well, why, or again, let's go back to your, you are on Instagram, starts talking to you about running YouTube ads. You are not on YouTube, so why are you listening? You have to, you have to like pick the strategy [00:33:00] that you're following first, and then it has to be cohesive. So if you're on Instagram, using ManyChat makes sense. Doing retargeting on Instagram makes sense. Still getting people, I'm not saying, don't I, I'm not saying don't ignore email. I'm not saying ignore email. I'm saying don't rely on it as your number one, right? Like include it in your strategy, but you have to have a. Overall cohesive strategy. And when I, I talk to so many people all day and they get so led astray by experts saying, do this, do this, do that. But that expert might not be the right fit for the strategy or the system that you already have in place. And then I see this all of the time, like all of the time, and it gets me so frustrated because I try to make recommendations that are gonna work where that person is at, or where that person is already focused. [00:34:00] Or if they're not focused, give them a strategy that cohesively works together. So if they don't have anything, say we talk, we figure out what platforms are best for them, and then come up with, okay, these are your platforms. The, these are the strategies to tie for them and it all works together. But then people get this whiplash. They're like, I'm on Instagram. I have all this Instagram, but Justin Welsh says I have to be on LinkedIn. And actually Justin Welsh is really good at like, not trying to say, you have to be on LinkedIn. He's like, this is what works on me. So is a bad example of, of this, but like you might just say, well, Justin Welsh is there now I have to have a newsletter.

I have to have this, I have to have that. I have to have that because he has it. Well, no you don't. already on Instagram. You already are getting leads from there. Pick a strategy that's gonna amplify Instagram, a different platform.

Michelle Pualani: Yeah. And it just is per, it pertains to you. So I think it's important to decide what it is that you enjoy, how you wanna contribute, in [00:35:00] what ways you market that makes sense for your brand, which is essentially a reflection of who you are and your values. Do I want you to also push yourself outside your comfort zone in order to find what those things are.

Definitely like trial and error. That's, I think, the best approach. I was just consulting with someone and she's launching, um, a particular product in our community. I won't give any details, but I was telling her, I was like, you gotta set up shop. Try to slang, like, try to sell these in different places.

You know, you're not gonna know until you know, and you can't just. If you have money to burn and if you have investment and a particular idea, and that's the type of business model you wanna go into, we don't really cater to that type of direction. Obviously, we're predominantly for online service providers, content creators, authority figures, who are selling typically digital products or services in the online space.

But. If you have money to burn, sure. [00:36:00] Put a bunch of money into something, see if it works, pay for stuff, hire the agency, whatever. Cool. But if you are the type of person who is bootstrapping, who wants to figure it out as they go, who is the solopreneur, who's wearing multiple hats, who wants to really dial in their marketing, their messaging, their presence, and be able to sell their offers?

Not just now, but into the future. It's trial and error, baby. Like you gotta just do it. You gotta go quantity level. And that's, that's where, again, where I started this conversation, but that's where I'm at in our business. We are at quantity, at testing, we are at figuring out what works for our brand.

Because despite what people tell you, like Joanna's saying, from a guru perspective, this is what works. This is what doesn't work. Doesn't matter, like take the advice and go in that direction. But even if you copy and paste that exact model, it doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna work for your brand. I know that people have like approaches that they [00:37:00] can apply to different brands and businesses, and I know that they have some level of success, but after working with a ton of agencies, following their systems and models, after having learning so many systems and seeing what other people work and trying to copy and replicate what someone else is doing, I can tell you it just doesn't work.

Like it's just not a thing that is possible. So you have to be able to say, okay, case studies. I know that case study ads perform well. I'm gonna create these types of case study ads for my brand with this type of scripting, either by myself or actually featuring people because I've gotta see what works for me.

Because when you look at the biggest brands out there. They're not just going into it and saying, I know that this one ad is gonna produce these results. They're saying, I'm gonna create 10 different ads. I'm gonna test 'em. I'm gonna go this hook. I'm gonna change this caption. I'm gonna do this thing and see what works throughout.

And then I'm gonna create 10 more ads, and then I'm gonna create 10 more ads, [00:38:00] or I'm gonna create a hundred pieces of content. And that's where the money is. That's where the direction is. That's where the success lies, is being able to move through the process, get the reps in, do the practice, and see what works.

And you might be in that phase right now and feel like, I feel, which feels like you're hitting your head against a wall, and you just feel so frustrated because you're showing up in all the right ways and you're doing the things and you're knocking like the dominoes down and you're checking the boxes.

But it hasn't quite clicked yet. And I think that, at least for me, what I've realized is there's just this little shift in understanding. The messaging component that I think is of the most important part. Like you could have crap video and terrible, even like not so great audio, but if your message is on point, it will shine through.

Do you want to have good video, have good audio? Sure. But it's that messaging component, and I think it's a, and it's not a knowledge aspect, I don't think it's that you [00:39:00] don't know your customer, you don't know your offer, you don't know the expertise and authority. I think it's this shift in language with what we were talking about and truly just like reflecting back to the consumer.

But there's something there in understanding your person and understanding your offer and understanding how your words fit into that. That just is, just needs a little bit of a tweak and you're only gonna get there by trialing. And once you start to see the traction, then you're gonna say, oh, I get it.

And then you'll be able to replicate it and keep going from there.

Joanna Newton: Yeah, you have to be the CEO of your business.

Michelle Pualani: Mm-hmm.

Joanna Newton: And you can't let your, the gurus or the people you hire, just like be your strategy or rely on them for everything. The people you hire can make recommendations. They can give you best practices. They can say, I think this is what you should do, this is what I would recommend. The the gurus out there can give [00:40:00] you cool things to try, but you have to be the CEO. You have to decide, what am I going to try? What am I going to test? Where am I gonna focus what makes sense for my business? And not let everything just make you wishy-washy here on this podcast, our goal is to give you updates, give you the tools, tell you what's going on so you can take it back and say, what of these things make sense to apply to my business?

I'm not saying to do all of them. I'm not saying you have to do any of them. I'm saying take what we're sharing and weigh in. Does should I apply this one or is this just a good concept for me to know for the future? How should I get on this platform or that platform? We're giving you information so you can make good decisions as the CEO of your business.

Michelle Pualani: And those decisions are always gonna be up to you. I always say like, the buck stops with me and it's cliche and I don't actually know what it really means or where it comes from. [00:41:00] I have no idea. Idioms are not my is

Joanna Newton: Is it a

Michelle Pualani: it thing?

Joanna Newton: deer, a buck, or is it like the dollar? a buck?

Michelle Pualani: Hmm. Interesting. I never thought of it that way. I have zero idea where that comes from. But it is true Buck. It is true.

Joanna Newton: Whatever the buck is, it does

Michelle Pualani: It's,

Joanna Newton: stop with you.

Michelle Pualani: it's right here. It stops with in front of me. Okay. So I'm ultimately responsible, whether that's a freelancer messes up, whether a customer is upset, whether content piece doesn't go out, whether email marketing is wrong. It's me. I am the business owner. Are people held accountable? Yes, absolutely.

But at the end of the day, it's me. It's my leadership. It's the way that I show up. It's my strategy, it's my vision, and I have to be, feel fully accountable and responsible for that. And then I think that is, that's just a good quality of leadership. And so speaking of being the CEO and making those decisions, I think as we start to wrap up this conversation, the [00:42:00] great thing to end on would be T Swift.

She just dropped her album next last week. Next week, last week. I know it's of course all over the internet. We talk about Taylor a lot. I hope that someday we'll get to meet her. Maybe we'll have her on the podcast someday. Maybe the podcast will get to that point.

Joanna Newton: happen. It's gonna be that level. She's gonna wanna come on our show. So this week it has been hot tea about Taylor. People love this new album. People hate this new album. But the most interesting thing about it, no matter how many people hate this new album, it's breaking records and getting streams.

And that is something we talk a lot about. I do wanna break down some of the Internet's thoughts about what's happening and actually why. I think there's been some backlash for the album, but at the end of the day, it almost doesn't matter that some people don't like it because the streams are through the [00:43:00] roof.

Um, I think this is the second most like streams in its first day for, for a female album. She, Taylor Swift also has the number one and like, I think she's like most of the top 10.

Michelle Pualani: She's pretty much just at this point competing with herself. It's like.

Joanna Newton: It's Taylor against Taylor basically. And, um, you know, she's had a really great rollout despite some of the criticism of the album because it's getting tons of streams.

Um, a few days after she released the album, she released more variants. So she's sold the same thing to the same people, like a hundred different ways. They're streaming it, they're listening to it. And even the people who are breaking down why they don't like it, are listening to the album to analyze why they don't like it.

They're using her songs in the background to tell people why they don't like it and make fun of it, right? Like, so even the haters. Are giving money, the haters are probably giving more [00:44:00] money to Taylor Swift than the people love her. So it's really, really fascinating to listen to. Um, and I wanna talk about, you know, some of the criticism that she's getting this album is getting some criticism for not being as lyrically strong as some of her other albums.

One of the things Taylor Swift's just kind of known for is her storytelling and her lyrics and like the depth of music. And this is I would say the album is fluffier than some of her other. And, um, of the things that I think is really interesting is what happened is I think we have a little bit of a pre-launch launch mismatch that has made people be more critical of this album than it need needed to be. So Taylor Swift called the album The Life of a Showgirl, and how it's, it's a look behind the curtain of what it's like to be a showgirl. [00:45:00] And I think that put people's mind thinking it was gonna be about like, hardships and struggle with the media, and struggle with the attention and having a private life, first public life and all of this, which are themes that are in a lot of Taylor Swift's music. So I think they were expecting something very different. But what this album is behind the curtain is like Happy Taylor falling in love because like what she was going through her behind the curtain. that right? Like, and so I feel like people were just expect the people, her fans that don't like it now, she has non-fans that don't like it.

That's always gonna happen. But her fans who don't like it, I think there was a mismatch between what they thought they were getting and what they got that has created that criticism for the album.

Michelle Pualani: That's really interesting because I haven't listened to [00:46:00] all of the songs. I've been listening to 'em obviously just kind of on social media and hearing little pieces, and there was one that stood out to me, something about a peach, some peach thing, and I, I just heard,

Joanna Newton: that's the title. Track the life of the Show, girl.

Michelle Pualani: is it, okay, cool. So there was like, I just heard that whatever the tidbit was on social media, and I thought it was really like, I loved the lyrics of it because I think that the way that Taylor does lyrics not knowing all of her albums, not being the expert at all about this, is she's not someone who, okay, like let's just talk about country music for a second.

Country music is like. My car broke down, my girlfriend left me, my wife, sorry, I couldn't help. I could not, my girlfriend cheated on me and keyed my car. Like, it's very obvious the lyrics that she's using, even from a storytelling perspective, they allude to so much more than what's being said. And so I think the depth of [00:47:00] what she sings about is often the fact that it's like, oh, well that could mean this, and that could mean this, and that could mean this, and this could be talking about this person that gets talking about, you know, it's like all of those things.

So I haven't listened to it, so I can't fully say, but I think that a lot of people, even from a fluffy perspective, are likely probably taking a lot of the lyrics from surface level and not maybe thinking through like, okay, what, what could actually be the seven layers of what she's actually talking about?

That being said. There is an interesting point about pre-launch versus launch versus delivery, and I do think that people struggle with this in terms of even like offer mismatch to marketing. Mismatch is what you're telling people you talk about you do versus what you actually do. There needs to be some sort of cohesion, right?

If you're launch, if you're doing a webinar launch and you're telling people that you're going to take them through a step-by-step strategy of how you scaled your Instagram to [00:48:00] 10,000 followers, and then you get on and you talk about, um. How you use email marketing to sell your offers. That might be a really great workshop and webinar, but the content is not related to what you were positioning.

And the funny thing is, is like you'd say like, oh well dove course, but it's funny when you're executing how often actually that happens. And I've seen it a lot with people in their content and their marketing and their positioning, and then with their offer or their free beer, the delivery, you're like, like why those, those two don't match up at all.

Like that's actually kind of confusing. So that is actually a very good lesson to learn is how are you positioning it? What does that look like? Now there's obviously gonna be assumptions from the consumer perspective, and then there's how you market a message and your only control is what you market a message, not necessarily the assumption.

So people could be making those assumptions, but you know, the experience of her going through this, I think is such a [00:49:00] celebratory thing. And I will say I, it makes me think of. Alanis Marette Jewel. Oh my gosh. Do you remember when Jewel got happy and all of her songs changed to pop and everyone was like, oh my God, this is terrible.

I can't believe it. Yada, yada, yada. I'm like, wait. So she's not like a tortured soul singing about like devastation. That's what's wrong. Seriously. But you know, I think this time with Taylor Swift and the whole album deal, and it's interesting that people have such a perception of these things. Maybe it's not as lyrical as her previous albums.

Maybe it's not what people expected or assumed. Um, that being said, I'm probably still really gonna enjoy. The music, and I think it's such a different reflection in this era and being a showgirl is about entertainment and popularity and having fun. And you know, for a fact, watching the ERA'S concert and everything that she did through that, she had a freaking [00:50:00] blast.

So if that's what she's talking about, I would assume that all of those things would be mostly incredibly positive because she loves what she does, she loves her engagement with her fans, she loves performing. And I think that's a really, and I think, I think it's great. Those are my s.

Joanna Newton: think it's, what's so interesting is like with anything, it always gets, when we talk about like the bandwagon, all of that, like this album is not gonna be my favorite album. Like, I agree with some of the, the, like, the criticism. I'm like, yeah, I, I, I see that. also know like that music and this type of story, it's not my favorite. And that is okay. Like I can, I, I kind of like watching the discourse and all of that. It has not dethroned any of my top albums. That's okay. It could also be like where I'm at in life, right? Like right now, three years from now I'm gonna be like, oh my [00:51:00] gosh, this is my favorite album. This is when I needed it.

Right? But it's so funny for people to go from. I don't like it to, it's bad because those aren't like the same thing, but people, that doesn't really get views on the internet. So, but like, it's not, and I wouldn't even say I don't like it. It's not my favorite, but I don't think it's bad. It's just like, not for me at this time in my life and, or even just like the style that I want, it's like not real.

Like, oh cool, that was a cool album. I'm gonna move on with my life. Um, then it's interesting for me to watch from like a marketing perspective, like what's happening and all of that. But there, it doesn't have to be your favorite and that's okay.

Michelle Pualani: I also think it's so interesting because, so there are songs, let's just say, what's that one? Oh God, I'm you, I'm so bad at details. The one about the, it's like,

Joanna Newton: Is it on the.

Michelle Pualani: no, it's an old one that she [00:52:00] does that's, she's wearing like sneakers and a dress in the thing. I can't even know why I can't think of the lyrics.

It's like one of the most popular ones where it's like a Romeo and Juliet is that

Joanna Newton: Well, there's a Romeo and Juliet song. There's also the like, you belong with me,

Michelle Pualani: I'm so bad.

Joanna Newton: think. I think 

Michelle Pualani: It's like, yes, that one. Yeah.

Joanna Newton: singing on the podcast.

Michelle Pualani: You don't want me to sing on the podcast? Oh, we'd stop. One, people would stop listening for sure. Okay. That one that is, I don't even know how old that song is. But there are certain songs and certain things that will come out, and because of your bias and because of what you've experienced before, you may have a sense, not you Joanna, but you general.

You may have this sense of like, oh, this isn't, maybe I don't like this, or maybe isn't the right thing for [00:53:00] me. And you'd be surprised that over time that perception can change, or the more that you listen to something can change. And from a marketing perspective, we know that what seven to eight touchpoints is used to be the case, but I don't even know what the data is right now based on the amount of noise that we experience, is that someone needs to see something so many times, usually before they engage in a different way.

Now, obviously that's not always the case for all buyers, but that is very common. And so with something like this, people will continue to have exposure to it and it'll be continued to be used in certain ways, or the context of that song changes because you saw it in a certain scene and now it has a different affiliation, a different emotion, and different meaning.

So I think it'll be interesting to see over time, you know, how the impact of the album and everything else. Yeah. But I still think that. Based on her ability to just engage people, to create these conversations, to have such a consistent [00:54:00] narrative in the in popular culture with fans and not fans and other people.

And you know, we talk about polarizing on the, on the podcast and she's someone who just does what she does. Like I love her energy and they're like, I don't, I don't care. Like I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. And of course that had to develop over time, but she's always had a little bit of that air. I'm gonna say what I'm gonna say and I'm not just gonna be polite about it if you are, you know, certain interviews and things like that and her content and everything else.

And so I think it's a lesson for us to be learned in realizing like that's what a personal brand is. That's what we do. Like be polarizing. And that's something I need to truly. Embody 'cause that's something I'm working on. 'cause I think I come from that people pleaser nature of wanting people to like me.

Like and I, I have been thinking a lot about this recently 'cause I've been reading a lot of books and so like stories like Roman romance type [00:55:00] stories and these different archetypes of main character. And you realize when you compare and you reflect on your own life, I'm like, wow, I have done so much to be liked by people and not really like, it's not to say that I didn't stand up for things I believe in, but I was always afraid of saying something that was going to either create confrontation or cause problems.

And that has translated into very wishy-washy, neutral, not very engaging content because it's just like, not even a popularity contest is a sense of like, well I don't want to ruffle any feathers. I wanna be liked as an individual. And we are in the day and age of polarizing. And speaking your opinion and like sharing that to the nth degree.

It's like when you watch a show and you have these characters that you absolutely love, the storylines and what they go through and what they say and how they act is [00:56:00] probably 10 x what a normal person would be like. But you fall in love with them. If they were just neutral every day, not, didn't really have anything that you could hold onto and latch onto, they would be forgettable.

And that's what you're creating in your personal brand is like, you want that thing that people are gonna latch onto and say, yes, I love this person. I stand by this person. Or You wanna be the villain and people hate you. And like, that's okay too. There are people out there who thrive off of that.

Joanna Newton: Yeah.

Michelle Pualani: I, I still wanna be someone that people predominantly love.

So I wanna lean into being not liked. And I'm done with being liked. I'm fine with not being liked, but I want to be someone that someone's like, yes, you are my person. And then for other people being like, oh, she's. She's not my cup of tea or I don't like that at all, but I'm ready to kinda step into that and be more 10 x of whatever my true self is, you know? 

Joanna Newton: Yeah, and I'll say, and I think this will be the last thing I say about the Taylor [00:57:00] Swift album today. I think actually one of the things you are talking about is relates to the criticism that I'm hearing of the album that I probably do agree with. Agree, is that I think people were expecting more from Taylor because of how she's shown up in her career. Like in the past, her music has spoken more to where people are at. In the world and we're in very weird times in our country right now.

Michelle Pualani: Hmm.

Joanna Newton: So in the past, Taylor has spoken up for the LGBT community. She has spoken up for women's rights, she has spoken out against gun violence. Um, are all things that are like very, uh, volatile Right now.

Women's rights are being taken away. There's talk of removing rights for the LGBT community. Uh, [00:58:00] our president is sending troops to cities to pull people they think are legal immigrants out of their homes. Like there are crazy things going on right now, and I think people expecting her to continue to care.

She's a billionaire now. She is doing those things. And this album is very much. I'm a rich lady with my rich husband with who's very well endowed. Like that's kind of what the album is about, which like fun. Cool. But I think there's a disconnect here because in the past I think people saw Taylor as someone much more relatable, much more close to the issues they held dear,

Michelle Pualani: Yeah.

Joanna Newton: she's a billionaire, she's putting out this record, she owns her masters, and then it's like not standing up for any of those issues that [00:59:00] she would've cared about in the past and has written songs about and has promoted. Um, and then singing about how great her life is when a lot of us don't know if our insurance premiums are going up three times next year. People are being like ripped from their homes, like people are losing their rights. And so not to end on like the heaviest note ever. and not to say Taylor Swift owes us anything.

She does not need to talk about those issues. She does not have to use those plat, that platform for those things. This is 100% her call. I think people are disappointed. I think people who looked at her for those things because she used to do those things are like, where are you now? And, and I think that's like hurting some of her fans and probably a legit way.

And she's probably knowing her, knowing her team, knowing all [01:00:00] of that. They probably knew that was gonna happen. Like they probably saw this and made a choice to not do that.

Michelle Pualani: Yeah. Ooh, that's a tough one. I think for us it's recognizing, you know, what are our values and how do they show up in the content we create in the marketing that we do? What do we talk about? We've talked about this on the podcast. There's a lot of volatile stuff going on in the world. How do we decide what we engage in and how we talk about it and the way that we approach it, whether we do or not?

She could be in a place in her life where there is so much part of my French shit hitting the fan

Joanna Newton: Yeah,

Michelle Pualani: the world, that she's chosen the side of kind of the ostrich like head in the sand, at least in this regard. Now, that's not to say that she's, she probably still likely donates a stupid amount of money.

Joanna Newton: correct. Yep.

Michelle Pualani: causes. She still speaks out on certain things. Like I know that that's part of the integrity of who she is as a human being. And so it's kind of interesting to see, [01:01:00] and I do know for a fact that everything that she has done in her career has been, I think from a place of like honesty and integrity and understanding, like they know what they're doing.

Like you said, her and her team, they know what they're doing. And so I'd be so curious to have her answer that question. I don't know if there are any in your views on that front of why she hasn't addressed, like what's going on in the world, whether it was like too much to try to cover or whether it was

Joanna Newton: gets

Michelle Pualani: like.

Joanna Newton: threats and things like that. Like it might be for person. There's a lot of

Michelle Pualani: There's a lot of serious things that can come for larger figures that are, that can talk out or have a say and like, and I get that. So it could be a self-protection thing. It could also be like, maybe this is one of the first times in her life where she is focusing on like what truly matters to her and not being a bleeding heart for other people.

And I have to admit, like that's something that I respect in [01:02:00] individuals. You and I have talked about this before, I don't personally believe that anyone owes anyone anything with their platform and with their, with their wealth or with their authority. Would it be great if the billionaires of the world were so empathetic and compassionate that they gave back in huge ways?

A lot of them do. Maybe not your billionaire billionaires, but a lot of people who make stupid amounts of money. A lot of founders and companies that we follow, they have pledged givebacks and they do give a lot of their money the way tax write-offs. Great. But also because they're actually good people and they wanna do good things, they're still paying taxes, they're still paying, I don't know how much they're paying in taxes that once you get up to that level, that's so beyond

Joanna Newton: are still paying taxes. We'll

Michelle Pualani: people, certain people.

But anyway, um, yeah. Oh my gosh. This conversation could keep on going. But let's go ahead and wrap it up. And as we're kind of reflecting on this and deciding, I think what works for you, definitely a common thread in this being intentional being, you know, [01:03:00] satisfied with. Who you are as an individual, the integrity of your brand, what you're bringing to the forefront, and showing up in that way.

I think that's the messaging we always come back to you and I click Tease podcast. It's really about aligning you yourself, what you bring to the table, and staying authentic and true to that, you know? And then using systems and using tools and crafting that message in a way that makes sense, but ultimately finding that for yourself.

Joanna Newton: Oh, I should say something to really wrap us up, shouldn't I? Um, anyway. Yes. Thank you so much for listening. You were just so smart. I was like, oh, Michelle wrapping it up so well. Thank you so much for listening. We hope that you will join us again, subscribe and share this episode with a friend. We'll see you next time [01:04:00]